All value comes from labour.
Productive labour:
Farming, factory work, extracting natural resources, scientific research, creating art etc
Non-productive labour (maintenance):
Nursing, domestic labour, caring for others, cleaning, education, performing songs, maintaining systems such as computer networks and electrical grid etc
^Both create and maintain a world for humans in a concrete way.
Not labour:
Investment banking, profit from interest, accumulation of capital etc
^Contribute nothing
@Cocoron think of the above and then realise that the Number one leader of the capitalist world and military empire of the world today made most of his money from casinos.
Casinos must be the lowest form of capitalism (except for slavery perhaps) because they produce absolutely nothing and suck cash from everything it touches. There are many good social/economic reasons that gambling is considered to be a sin.
@Cocoron Well, investment can be seen as selecting the initiatives that will generate more profit (thus utility), stills being useful, at least a bit.
@Cocoron hrm.
i think this actually helped me formulate for myself why labor theory of value stuff doesn't seem to model reality especially well, despite its rhetorical / emotional appeal.
@Cocoron I don't totally agree with the "Non-productive labour" part.
Can we agree that all these things are actually producing something ?
Nursing produces the conditions for healthy upbringing. Cleaning produces better environments. Education produces the spread of knowledge.
@Cocoron
It is, IMO, even more obvious once you realize that capitalism wants to conquer these areas. Then what makes it, productive when capitalism can extract value from it, but non-productive when it does not help accumulate capital (if made by a state agent or a non-profit) ?
Even under communism these things should be done and be paid with a wage in return, right (or even better, recognized by default with a lifelong, unconditional wage)?
@alxcndr the difference between productive and non-productive labour is somewhat arbitrary and a big issue of contention but it ultimately doesn't matter because both types of labour contribute something, whereas unearned income doesn't.
@Cocoron what about insurance?
@Cocoron you could really pick this apart. Is art really productive? Yes, it produces works of art, but can that be compared to producing a car? Farming produces food, but food is just consumed in order to keep people alive, so it's really just maintenance. Education could be thought of as producing people who can do things. Just thoughts.
"Is art really productive? Yes, it produces works of art, but can that be compared to producing a car?"
"Is art really productive? Yes"
@bit101 @eric The beautiful thing is that in an Anarchist system the debate of what's "valuable/productive" and what's not would ultimately be decided by the individual and the ventures that they contribute to. Non-productive members (Capitalists) would be voted out unless they started contributing. And of course, what is "productive" depends highly on the context, but we don't need to decide preemptively what that is - it's the right of each individual to do so!
