racism, fascism 

From afronerdism.tumblr.com : A meaningful critique on referring to american white supremacists as nazis.

re: racism, fascism 

@kittenlikeasmallcat this is interesting, and if I could be allowed to "yes and" this a bit...

it reminds me of a few years ago in Montréal, when the student movement was fighting with the police a lot (and a lot of anarchists and other radicals were involved)

and there was this whole thing of calling the cops "Nazis" in various ways. the police agency's logo was changed to have a swastika, people had this bad chant "S-S-PVM / PO-LICE POLITIQUE", people would ironically sieg heil at them

it sucked for 3 reasons:
- I'm not Jewish, but I understand it was not a great environment for a lot of Jewish comrades, didn't make people want to be a part of that movement, etc.

- we don't need to pretend that the police are swastika-waving Nazis for anyone to hate them or oppose them, we can have a problem with them based on what they actually are, no caricatures necessary

- this sort of thing inordinately centers the years 1939-'45 and the territory of the Nazi empire as the temporal and spatial center of history's "darkness", which (however bad it was, cuz it was obviously pretty bad) distorts the picture of just how profoundly and comprehensively fucked up all of history; in North America, this is especially to the detriment of a (potentially more relevant) comprehensive understanding of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and modern anti-blackness, the conquest, extermination, and assimilation of indigenous people, the crimes of both the British empire, the United States, or even a "smaller player" like any part of Canada/Québec

me and my friends fought people about it a lot. most conversations didn't go anywhere but sometimes people stopped joining in the chant 🤷

racism, fascism 

@kittenlikeasmallcat It's aspirational because we actually beat the Nazis.

Honestly, though, this makes a good point.

racism, fascism 

@dl @kittenlikeasmallcat

All this makes sense. BUT I'll still view with real caution any other White person who tries to boil it down to, "Stop talking about Kristelnacht when Tulsa happened," and so on. (Literally saw this just recently.) Because I'm Jewish, and I have two hands, and I can think about more than one genocide at a time.

re: racism, fascism 

@kittenlikeasmallcat This is absolutely a valid critique but I also want to underline that there is also a very well established neo-nazi movement in the United States that has been absolutely thriving for the past 5 years.

They fly the literal Nazi flag. They salute each other with variations of Nazi salutes and phrases. They find each other using coded Nazi language.

Not all Klansmen are Nazis, but not all Nazis are Klansmen, either.

re: racism, fascism 

@mawr @kittenlikeasmallcat Yeah, this is the angle I see this from as well. A lot of american fascism is disregarded as "it can't happen here", and the direct nazi connection disputes that. And it's not like that disregards the slave trade etc as not and equal or greater evil. When we actually look at american nazism, we can trace it back far through american history. It's a part of all those evils 'moderate' americans insist on being fringe, or in the past

re: racism, fascism 

@mawr @kittenlikeasmallcat and ultimately, i don't care about the difference between someone who openly considers themselves a nazi vs someone who covertly holds nazi beliefs vs someone who doesn't, but ultimately falls in line with nazis and provides them cover

I absolutely agree that many people downplay the evils of the slave trade and try to avoid ownership of the klan, but i'm still wary of the implications of the above take. theyre all related factions of genocidal evil

re: racism, fascism 

@Yza @kittenlikeasmallcat
IMHO we can score maximum points here by just calling them all what they are:

violent white supremacists

re: racism, fascism 

@mawr @kittenlikeasmallcat yup. i think calling out all violent white supremacism from all the places you can find them and showing how they are equal and connected is super valuable. how the klan is like nazis, how the nazis modeled themselves after american racial politics, how that has roots in the slave trade, colonialism (both of which were filled with white people and built empires, like the british empire, and wrote the narative of our history)

re: racism, fascism 

@Yza @mawr @kittenlikeasmallcat i think on nazi relations to US, it always need to be highlighted that historically US didn't saw nazi Germany as direct enemy, they sold weapons to them. US and UK prolonged WWII just to keep the nazi Germany fighting URSS. the "D day" was planned way before and was just executed when they're seeing URSS beating nazi Germany alone and was afraid of the whole continental europe becoming communist. That URSS that won the war against nazi Germany.

re: racism, fascism 

@Yza @mawr @kittenlikeasmallcat i mean USSR, i wrote the acronym in portuguese.

re: racism, fascism 

@mawr @kittenlikeasmallcat But yeah, we should be clear on what we condemn and how. I am big on drawing attention to how british war hero winston churchil was a fan of eugenics and committed soooo many genocides, to the point that i don't really think him any better than hitler. it's not less evil because it targetted Africans and Indians.

It can be hard to build the more intricate and illuminating narratives we need to tackle these evils, so these discussions are very good

re: racism, fascism 

@Yza @mawr @kittenlikeasmallcat I think it's ok to make a difference of the overall us nationalist white supremacists and the neo-nazi, bc usually they support jewish ppl and they see their relationship with Israel as a example they're not nazi. But they need to be called out on their support to the Israeli genocide of palestinian ppl. They need to called out on the many coups and dictatorship they caused in latin america.

re: racism, fascism 

@Yza @mawr @kittenlikeasmallcat they need to be called out on creating Saddam Hussein and Daesh because of their interferences in middle east. They need to be called out on all the wars they caused around the world just to keep their economic interests.

re: racism, fascism 

@kittenlikeasmallcat I'm going to have to disagree with you there. They do not care about Jewish people

Their support for israel comes from 2 self serving places:
1) fundamentalist christian endtimes prophesy requires isreal to belong to the Jewish people to happen. much of the right wing party belongs to such christianity & actively wants this to come to pass
2) they want a successful ethnostate somewhere to pint to & say "you are fine with the jews having one. why not us?"

re: racism, fascism 

@kittenlikeasmallcat The number 1 minority targeted by the american far right is Jewish people. So much so that the breitbart style guide from 3-4 years ago explicitly stated that everything must be blamed on the jews one way or another

any time you hear them talking about george soros, the deep state, globalism, any reference to the holocaust, the 'elites', bankers, etc etc, they're talking about the jews

racism, fascism 

@kittenlikeasmallcat I always thought it was because traditionally the fact that nazis were evil was the one thing everybody could agree on. People were called nazis not because the technically were nazis, but because there was no doubt in anybody's mind, neither the accuser nor the recipient that they were as bad as it gets.

In a way it was a baseline level of horrific.

These days, this doesn't work anymore. There are people so bad that they justify or even sympathise with pretty much every horrible regime in history. There isn't a single horribel thing that both sides can agree on is horrific.

Sign in to participate in the conversation
ACP 🎉🍰

The social network of the future: No ads, no corporate surveillance, ethical design, and decentralization! Own your data with Mastodon!