If we're going to play by "not just triggering, but upsetting as in 'wtf, thanks for messing up part of my day'" rules, "white dudes treating Masto as a tech fraternity" fits that criteria for me, and a lot of other people as well.

Even if people are just talking with each other, POC speech is deemed "that's not Masto culture" in a lot of cases.

Here's a made-up example, but also a serious one:

"Can you believe that shit?"

"They need to take a step back."

"Excuse me, but this is quite untoward. Could you find proper attire and keep your voice down?"

Objecting when someone tries to call them out, and they push back? Not that as well.

Same goes for objecting to white tech dudes and their takes.

(BTW: this isn't a subtoot at Gargron. Making this sort of thing about him alone helps nobody, it's cultural.)

That's about it. Thanks.

@shoutcacophony Hey, if I ever unwittingly pull that kind of sh!t, feel free to call me on it? Obvs not your obligation. (Hopefully this invitation remains moot… but I'm only human.)

@qwyrdo Standing and noted, mon capitan :)

@shoutcacophony *salutes capitainly*

@qwyrdo *dances in a pirate-like way*

@shoutcacophony THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. I honestly just about left over the whole Fork Off soap opera not because I was triggered by the discussion (though I could totally see how it could be triggering to many people, and it was bothersome, certainly), but because I was annoyed out of my mind that I couldn't see the commie queers that are the reason that I'm here for all the coding culture boosts in my TL.

@SuzanEraslan right? I was guilty of that as well (guilty for a reason, but still). It's like "hey, this is the wrong sort of blocking out the sun."

@shoutcacophony You at least CWed all of it! I don’t mind if it has a CW so I can scroll past, but it was just nonstop walls of text about the feasibility and value of forking and I was like, “ARGH, I DON’T CARE, CAN’T YOU DO THIS SOMEWHERE ELSE?”

@SuzanEraslan Yeah. I saw that as well, was like "OK, I'm taking a break." I didn't dare try going down the rabbit hole much past that, because...yeah. fk. lol

@shoutcacophony the reason we have a tech focus here is that mostly just tech people are aware of this new form of social network and join. so to improve the situation try to build instances around other topics (which is what I do). but don't expect the majority of the people here to just to disappear. @SuzanEraslan

@steckerhalter @shoutcacophony You say “we have a tech focus” and “mostly just tech ppl” join, but this thread isn’t about discovery. It’s about attrition.

Nobody is saying tech ppl should be subjected to attrition to drive them out, but tech ppl’s possessiveness of the platform does create attrition isolating them here. This is a self-exacerbating problem tech ppl can help solve not by disappearing but by intentionally coexisting.

@Cobalt @steckerhalter this is the civil version of what i would otherwise say (along with "i worked in tech for over a decade, so you can stop with that now"), so i'm going to leave it there and go back to muting your account ;p

@shoutcacophony Yeah, I just... yeah. “We act like nobody else is here bc nobody else is here. Why be good neighbors if we don’t have neighbors?”

Not having neighbors isn’t a law of nature. The only reason to knowingly refuse to be better neighbors in order to keep neighbors is if one doesn’t want any. Which... ok I guess, but at that point we’ve abandoned “it’s nobody’s fault” as a fig leaf & the self-aware thing might be to admit it?

@steckerhalter or MAYBE, just maybe, nontech folks (like those who introduced me to mastodon in the first place, and those i friended when i first came here) are chased away because of the same old good old boys club that chases non-tech folks away from internet spaces through its unwelcoming attitude and refusing to lift marginalized non-tech voices.

@ghost tech people don't "refuse to lift" anything. they are just what they are and behave accordingly. but I must defend the tech people on the #fediverse. in general they are very nice and friendly. if people are being driven away by them, I just wonder...

@steckerhalter so because you've never experienced harassment, oppression, invalidation (which is exactly what your reply to me did btw) it doesn't exist here?

cool story, bro. super helpful for improving the culture here. 👍

@ghost I did experience it of course, but compared to other platforms very little. I wrote "in general". I didn't invalidate anything. I think to say that people should lift marginalized non-tech voices is not helpful because the majority of people just want to follow their interests. but what I experienced now are non-tech people writing unfriendly replies to my initial comment, speaking of an unwelcoming attitude, maybe the problem is really elsewhere?

@shoutcacophony It's currently the main reason, I've found, why people fleeing the invasive technologies of a Facebook or Twitter, for example, find it so difficult to settle here. It's not that learning the new tools is too difficult, it's that they're not interested in wading through debates on programming.
I don't find it upsetting - more stultifyingly boring, like a footy fanzone for geeks.

@OutOnTheMoors *nods* For me, it's been like "...I can't honestly say my memories of working as a technical writer were pleasant, but ok, here we go. At least it's not all cishet white dudes. Unlike trying to research electronic music gear online."

A short while later: "Oh, there they all are. OK."

That + "computer industry???? arts??????? money???????? praxis????????????????" pretty much sums it up for me

@shoutcacophony @OutOnTheMoors

Is it more a quantity issue re: tech talk? Or a quality issue? Or the fact so many lack CWs? B/c unfortunately every board I've ever been seemed to have oceans of a main subject that I just had to pick around, because it wasn't my thing at all.

But Twitter was no better, honestly. I'd try to use the words-filter thing they added to get around various crazes or trendy things, usually entertainment-related. It never worked.

@amylsacks @OutOnTheMoors i think there's consensus (accurately, imo) that this place remains better than twitter, so we all have that to build upon, at least.

board as in BBS board, or as in masto instance? (asking)

@shoutcacophony @OutOnTheMoors

*Every* variety, going back to the latter days of fandom on Usenet. :D [waves cane around while cranking up *Matlock* tapes]

Do you think some of the problems could be eased if ppl. were just more diligent w/CWs?

@amylsacks @shoutcacophony Personally, I don't think CWs are the answer.
[she toots, from behind a CW]
I'll try the invitation tool @Gargron has come up (on my other account) to see if there's a way to gather people and provide the critical mass of similar accounts to get them to stay involved.

@amylsacks @shoutcacophony For most it is quantity - the discussions themselves seem well-informed and co-operative.
I found selective following was the key in the birdcage. I have a 13k follower account in "Weird/Joke Twitter", and many are reluctant to move across because it's difficult to find the a similar niche.

@OutOnTheMoors @shoutcacophony I think I had around 1500 followers before deletion and I never figured out how to rig it to my satisfaction. If I wanted the wheat I had to scroll and scroll through chaff, every day. That's just how it was. Part of this may be my prickly, conflicted Middle Child Mind which goes along to get along and seethes with silent frustration all the while... after 30 or so yrs. this comes to seem like a correct mindset. :/

@OutOnTheMoors @shoutcacophony & of course now I have to step out just as it's getting really good. Sorry. :o But I'll be back.

@amylsacks @OutOnTheMoors no worries, i'm multitasking badly, as i do lol

@shoutcacophony @amylsacks
Will look in later. I still run a "contest" (not competitive, that's just the term) in the birdcage for small accounts. Helps newcomers find funny material and accounts to follow. It's not a followtrain - no need to follow me or anyone else, its just a community-based thing. About 40 of us involved.

@OutOnTheMoors @shoutcacophony It wouldn't have worked out for us. I have no sense of humor. :P

For real, though... even the worst trash over there is far less stressful to experience as a mere lurker. Now that it's been about six months, I feel safe committing to this.

@amylsacks @shoutcacophony
That's why I'm here now. It's too full of increasingly asinine political shouting and cynical exploitation of users. That's before I even mention the ridiculous algorithms they rely on instead of moderators.

@OutOnTheMoors @shoutcacophony I have the nagging feeling that I'm seeing more of what I actually find important (ie-- GP US news) as a lurker than I did as a subscribing user.

@amylsacks @shoutcacophony
As a South African, I have a more limited interest in the minutiae of US politics - but that doesn't prevent dozens of Trumptwat trollbots and cyborgs following me every week because I retweet from a left-wing perspective. It becomes exhausting.

@OutOnTheMoors @amylsacks I'm in the U.S., but my version of this:

*tries to side-step direct confrontation with the right on a per-account basis as much as possible for personal/collective safety, while still vocalizing left-wing politics*

*gets followed by someone overtly claiming Army of God membership, across multiple sock puppets*

@OutOnTheMoors @amylsacks

*says anything at all about trans politics, or transness period*

*gets followed by account for a site that outs trans people and posts all their information*

@shoutcacophony @amylsacks
My account was reported out of existence by Trumptrolls - I've just had it reinstated after a year. The fediverse offers an alternative to the vexed question of which laws appy where. It's pretty bizarre that they can attack a foreigner, who gets banned under Twitter's US-centric rules for a response that's not very offensive elsewhere. (I called one "scum".)

@OutOnTheMoors @amylsacks

newest "violation of twitter's rules" hijinx: "so apparently telling musk to that if he really cares about freedom he should turn his business into a workers coop is a violation of twitters rules" with a pic of their locked account

@OutOnTheMoors @amylsacks a lot of things led to me leaving, but "getting mobbed by 25 fascists and proud boys for signal-boosting an antifa protest" was one of them

@OutOnTheMoors @shoutcacophony LOL. Well, my Yankee butt was tossed in the Birdie Penalty Box. for calling some Evropa type a fool. Not even any profanity. That was the beginning of the end.

@shoutcacophony @amylsacks
(And you'd be well-protected in SA from trans-haters 😊 Our Constitution is very modern and would regard their site as criminal.)

@OutOnTheMoors @amylsacks *adds to "am i fighting the good fight by remaining here, or just being stubborn" list of "leave, are you kidding me" things*

@shoutcacophony @amylsacks
Not fighting the good fight - that war is over. Still helping small accounts get their tweets to a wider audience. (It's a Weird/JokeTwitter thing.) People have been good to me and I owe them some loyalty. It's easier, I think, to encourage others to move here if it's not presented as an ultimatum.

@OutOnTheMoors @shoutcacophony Heh. My griping about the paucity of old acquaintances here is just that: griping. I don't have the power (or will) to present anyone with an ultimatum for anything. My fault for not becoming the Kinkeade of Collage *before* deciding to just delete everything and let God sort it out. :D

@shoutcacophony @OutOnTheMoors

Shit. That was a thing even in the days of individual bbs "feminism." [flings laptop into the lake again]

@OutOnTheMoors @shoutcacophony Even in the LJ days, I seriously didn't feel the logic of deliberately engaging in hate-follows. I mean, the ostensibly "Progressive" local board was where the hipster-fucko dude started crying that he should get to display the Stars 'N Bars w/o people calling him a big fucking asshole. It was also where some Libertarian pal of his thought it'd be fun to spam me w/Holocaust pics. Bleah!

@amylsacks @shoutcacophony A whippersnapper - I qualify as a boomer :-)

@shoutcacophony This must have been before I started trying to seriously use Masto. Yuck. :(

@kitoconnell If I recall, yup, before. Yuck it was. :/

@eliotberriot

I really don't understand the issue with tech stuff being not CWed.
If someone have its timeline filled with tech stuff, and don't like it, maybe he is in the wrong instance? Maybe he don't follow the good folks for him?

In fact, if we CWing tech stuff, we might have to CWing everything.

@shoutcacophony

@NicolasConstant
Every timelines are filled with tech stuff. Don't act like you don't understand.

@eliotberriot @shoutcacophony

@NicolasConstant @eliotberriot @jared @shoutcacophony I already saw this pattern elsewhere. In a group of people I currently am in, we created discussion channels to be able to chat everyday easily and make new people coming easier and more enjoyable etc.

Problem is, we are a lot of geeky/tech people in it and I rapidly had feedback from non-tech people that this was a problem because they felt left out, couldn't follow the discussions and wanted to go away because of that.

I created another channel and had to make my bot (that helped me to admin and animate) police some keywords to make reminders as gently as possible (as I also have the tendency to talk a lot when someone starts me on geeky stuff and I wanted it to stop).

My point is, not everyone is geeky/tech and make them leave because they don't have your knowledge / interest level is bad, selfish and certainly not inclusive.

Mastodon and the Fediverse in general should not revolve around geeky people only because, let's face it, that rapidly becomes toxic. (and not. everyone. has. the. same. interests.)

Oh, and stop complaining about CW: there is one on each and every of your incoming and outgoing emails and no one never complains.

CW on the Fediverse only are that: subject of the message, to let. people. choose. if they want or can read.

@shoutcacophony @eliotberriot @jared @NicolasConstant Yes, it makes you think about your message before posting it.

But that's actually a very good thing: when you talk you never talk alone, there is living, thinking people on the receiving end. This in not censorship, this is basic human respect.

I agree with the fact that tech discussions could be CW when possible, on generalistic instances for exemple. Or made in private/unlisted (that way you don't pollute the federated timeline).

Actually that is a very valid point that did not cross my mind sooner and I'll try to be more carefull on this myself. 🙃

@Electron

Well that was part of my point: if we CW tech we'll end to CW everything (i.e. the email example you gave).

And the debate would be in favor or against global CW (because CW itself can be offending depending to your own personal philosophy).

@eliotberriot @jared

@jared @NicolasConstant @eliotberriot This is a strawman argument.

The point is not "to CW everything" (even if by itself would not be a totally bad thing⁽¹⁾), but to think about people that read you, what will be their reaction.

Your way of deviating this to "oh shit we will have to think before tooting" proves exactly imho what is the problem.

[1] a title is great, it sums the content and make everyone gain time by allowing them to rapidly filter out what they'll read. Furthermore, as you can't know every trigger from everyone, just summing up your text would be in a way a nicer thing to do. I agree it would make a lot of effort, but that's partly because of how Mastodon is agenced.

That is a technical problem, not a "censorship" philosophical one.

Calling it that deviates from the original point: there are people in here that DELIBERATELY (or just by not caring about others) put hurting and triggering stuff without warning. And when you tell them, most of the time what you get is "be stronger or get out".